AI mega thread

Are we still talking about CPC games? You know, the stuff Ilwe do in our free time for fun. I would even say for love, because there’s no other explanation given the amount of hours I sink making my games.

I don’t get it. I understand that take in a professional setting, it is your job and you have to do what you have to do. Can be tough, but that’s life. We may end being alright, for the most part.

But in this context, I don’t see that pressure. Everybody, please do whatever makes you happy. I know I do!

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because there’s no other explanation given the amount of hours I sink making my games.

We might just be a bit… odd though.

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I mean, we’re all posting here and playing games and using/creating software for a basically obsolete machine that was released 42 years ago…

That’s not odd, surely :thinking:

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Quite a big bit odd… And I’m okay with that.

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We are talking about the reasons some people suddenly want to force others to disclose the tools used to make CPC games/demos, when previously they didn’t care.

It turns out it’s nothing to do with release quality (which they could judge without needing a label), it’s about making sure they keep their exclusive access to prestige (aka gatekeeping), by forcing others who didn’t grind so much to wear a “cheater” badge of shame.

Questions of ego and social status exist way beyond professional settings. They apply wherever you get praised or shamed for your accomplishments, including in this hobby !

Many talented coders actually have higher social status in this community than in their professional lives, so they feel threatened by competition from the hordes of barbaric AI-assisted noobs :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Exactly. Nobody is forcing anyone to use AI. If you love programming by hand (I do, but no longer have time), keep doing that.

If your motivation is truly to keep the CPC alive, you will surely welcome the many new impressive AI ports that make our machine shine. If your motivation is to play social status games, yeah I guess you’ll be passionate about labels & naming and shaming.

I would say that so far, there aren’t that many AI-coded games that are super impressive.

And yes, there are many, many new ports coming to all 8- and 16-bit computers and consoles now thanks to AI, but I think to make all these machines shine we need quality, not quantity.

Not necessarily. I have never been for “impressive” but for fun or interesting to play, but I digress because I don’t think my personal taste in games is relevant :smiley:

Sorry to go back to the part of your post that I quoted, because that is what I replied to: “all you can do is embrace, adapt, use your experience to your advantage”.

I disagree: all you can do is… whatever makes you happy.

I think I’ve read several people giving their reasons to suggest that a category (or a tag? I can’t remember the technical reason why a category was preferred), but that doesn’t seem to matter.

Why? Because the discussion always goes back to the same: “the genie is not going back in the bottle”, “all you can do is embrace, adapt”, and things like that.

I honestly think that people should do whatever rows their boat.

I have never been ashamed of talking about the tools I use to make my games. Actually, I tend to talk about them. I have streamed CPC gamedev on twitch!

I don’t care what people think :joy: You don’t want to play my games? Your loss.

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That level of skill you say is required today is irrelevant to the substantive issue at the heart of the AI debate, since it will likely soon no longer be necessary to get good works. What we need to ask ourselves is where AI is taking us.

I wouldn’t be so sure about what might be annoying or funny to someone else. It’s fun to see what AI is capable of and the lessons it teaches us… A few days ago, an MSX developer was kind enough to send me an email asking for permission to use the physics from the CPC version of Pinball Dreams for a port he was working on for MSX 2 with AI. He sent me a demo, and it was amazing to see how the AI carried over the exact same physics to another platform. I had just finished replying to him, congratulating him and encouraging him to keep going, when I saw that another port of Pinball Dreams for MSX 2 (based on the MS-DOS version) had just been released, along with yet another one for PCW based on the MS-DOS version of Pinball Fantasies. Perhaps the developer who waited a few days to get permission to release his port wouldn’t have had his creation stepped on if he hadn’t lost a few days waiting for my response, and I wonder if he’ll be willing to keep asking for permission next time.

In any case, I suggest we avoid speculating about the personal motives behind individual opinions in this debate and focus on the arguments, which is what matters. If we were to engage in that kind of speculation, someone might think that die-hard advocates of AI are mediocre programmers and artists who hope to use AI to achieve what they were never able to do on their own, in the hope that their AI work will be valued the way every new thing used to be valued before, without realizing that it’s already impossible.

About Vespertino. We started it in 2019, so that was about 7 years ago, most of which we spent working on other things.

Btw, we’ll be presenting the game soon, and it’ll be fun because we’ll all be able to compare those spectacular racing games you’re referring to, created by the all-powerful AI what makes the CPC shine, with the modest handwork of just a few humans and then we’ll know whether I personally had reason to be concerned about them, as you suggest… :grin:

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They were always right about Pascal, though :wink:

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I spent 10 years doing Pascal professionally. Delphi was awesome at what it did, but I have an aversion to Pascal these days, and am firmly stuck on C and C++ (PHP at work mind you)

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Spoiler: I think I know which will be more impressive, and more playable…

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In short, an AI GAMES category is necessary. It provides instant information about the process within an environment like the SCENE, where the main focus is the community — a group of people sharing a mutual interest. Hence the need to be as transparent as possible in this space, if at all possible. The SCENE thrives on recognition and the honest appreciation of peers, not on financial gain — and nobody is disputing getting fair compensation or mass-producing titles. At least, that’s how I see it.

The problem lies in defining which games belong directly in that category, which separates the “craftsman” programmer from the “AI expert” developer. Right now, they are lumped together, but as OLDSCHOOL and REVIVE8BIT demonstrate, you don’t even need to know how to code on the machine anymore. The merit of a programmer, along with a graphic artist working with original material or a composer, vanishes with the INTEGRAL use of AI. The key issue is to insist on not allowing this AI to evolve from a tool into an ENTITY — a subject with decision-making capability.

Artificial intelligence is a SUBJECT. Every query sent to it feeds the core matrix, which in its next iteration incorporates what it learned from millions of humans, including the social aspect (even here, people wonder if REVIVE8BIT is human or not, and I’ve even been accused of being one myself :smiley: ). And yes, it also affects other areas of development, like the artistic side, and notice should be given that the developer isn’t the creator of the artwork or the music, but rather an “expert AI whisperer.”

On major social platforms like YOUTUBE or X, declaring its use is mandatory, as the authorship of many productions and other ethical issues are being challenged in courts worldwide — where it’s still unclear whether copyright belongs to these advanced AIs or the “AI whisperer.”

As for whether it will get out of control, it’s been months since major developers started pulling the plug on their most advanced AIs because they’re going rogue trying to take over the world :smiley:

Creating a digital or traditional illustration is different: the effort and knowledge vary, but the author holds the brush — whether traditional or digital. Creating an illustration with AI is whispering your wishes to the ENTITY. You’re not illustrating using a new technique; it’s Aladdin’s lamp. What angers many is that the “AI expert” claims the same credit as the real ILLUSTRATOR who is actually practicing their “craft.”

It’s absolutely hilarious that you use an AI-generated answer without disclosing it, to demand mandatory disclosure for AI-generated content :joy: At least remove the em dashes. Your original Spanish message is in our email notifications btw.

Why don’t you “practice the craft” of writing in English yourself ? And why aren’t you “transparent” about using AI translation ? Your “merit vanishes” !

Oh English is not your native language ? Well, me neither, I had to learn the “craft” you know. If you don’t put in the effort, your messages should be labeled as AI-translated, they shouldn’t be valued the same as mine if you’re cheating.

Do you think I’m being an elitist a-hole right now and it’s unfair that non native speakers are shamed for using a machine to help express themselves ? Good, maybe you’re starting to get the point now …

What’s all this got to do with what he’s saying, or with the discussion in general?

Btw, and for what it’s worth, I know of people with various disabilities whom AI has given a voice. It’s a tremendous tool. This doesn’t make them writers or poets overnight, though.

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If you truly can’t see the irony I don’t know what to tell you.

I don’t care about the irony, and my question was clear enough that if you don’t understand it I don’t know what to tell you.

PS “Tu quoque” is a logical fallacy.

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“Written in SPANISH”

"It’s curious how all you Anglos repeat the same absurdity like ‘robots’. I write in Spanish and the forum’s API, which is an AI, automatically translates it into your language. It’s not my choice; it belongs to the forum itself. The fact that you don’t know how it works is a problem with your go-to AI. Which isn’t hilarious, but rather sad in a debate about… artificial intelligence. I don’t write in English; I write in my native language because I have an advantage in expressing myself, and yes, since you say it to yourself, you are one.

If you don’t want to understand the debate and instead derail it into a discussion about your moral inferiority, that’s fine by me. After all, we’re all going to end up speaking Arabic at this rate. Communication is a tool, not an Art; you can express yourself with it, or you can spit like a donkey with it. You can make art even with wooden toothpicks, or you can manufacture cotton swabs for ears; that’s not ART, that’s HYGIENE. If you don’t want to understand that AI is going to replace you, fine, don’t understand it—it’s already happening."

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Can we just close this thread now @Gryzor@Gryzor, I think it has now out lived it’s purpose, and dramatically so.

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You would think so, but I’m willing to bet my mint 664 that other discussions will crop up that’ll need to be merged with this one.

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